Curse

Goonter · Jun 01, 2005, 07:02 PM // 19:02

But they dont need us.

So I have a few "wishful" suggestions.

Before you jump to any flaming or counter arguements, here me out.

Of course monks need other classes to round them out, right? Sure.

The thing is, if a monk is on a team, a large portion of his skills are relivent for any situation in pvp or pve - heal the team.
The other classes have builds that work in favor of one situation or another. The classes that are more situational are often less needed. For example, 3 monks on a team an people are happy. 3 rangers and people get upset. (its this a balance issue?)

A ranger can set up to lure and trap, to distrupt, to condition the field for everyone, do excellent damage, to survive, and whatever else really well, one build at a time. Each one of this things in the right situation is very helpful. Suddenly, when the right situation comes about, "Man, your a good ranger. Thats rare"
Mesmers face the same problem. They can take out a monk easy with an anticaster build, but when there is just rangers and warriors...that mez will be sort of useless.

Ive read here a situation in where a team of 8 was wailing on monk boss and he would not die. Ive experanced this also. Of course the team wasnt prepared for him. There are skills that would take him out with no problem. The thing is, a slap together team of 8 would not have to prepare to wail on a boss of any other class to eventually take him out.

I feel as if this is a precievable problem. Be it, not a "hugh" problem, but an issue none the less.

My hopeful suggestion, and it can go any which other way to solve this, is to make bosses of other classes harder.
Mez bosses could cast faster and select the targets that would benifit him most.
Ranger bosses could evade more and know when to run (and fast) and take less time to set up traps.
Elementist bosses cast could combo easier and do great damage while adding to his defence
Warrior bosses could block more.
Necro bosses could..well do whatever it takes to make them stay alive longer. (sorry necros, I dont understand you class to well, but I do know nec bosses fall when teamed up on)

So the idea here is to make each boss as situational as the monk boss is. They are very beatable, but if you dont plan for it, it will take much more time, if not all day to take down, just like monk bosses.

Now, as Ive added to the defenive capablities to the classes bosses. It could be also added to the class for players themselves.
The other way around it would be to make the monk boss more defeatable, but then to also "nerf" the monk class.

In pve, it can be easier to prepare your class for the situation you know your about to encounter. In pvp, its much more random.

Another idea would be to instead make skills and attribution points interchangable during the count down in pvp. Also during this time you can have a list of all the players and there classes on entering battle. Thereby helping you prepare yourself for a fairly random encounter.

ok, whatcha think?

Dagbiker · Jun 01, 2005, 07:11 PM // 19:11

i agree that the monk is not "over powered" but over used i guess i could say. i think that lowering the monks abillity to heal or the monks "armmor class" would be the best thing to do. there for when the mezmar is at 5al, the monk would be at 0al, and it might progress from there.

toastgodsupreme · Jun 01, 2005, 07:36 PM // 19:36

"We don't like monks! They're over powered! Everyone has a monk primary or secondary!!! NERF MONKS! NERF NERF NERF Monk primaries by shitting on their armor!!!"

Wtf is wrong with you guys?

Lower my ARMOR LEVEL???? Are you serious? Because I don't seem to take enough agro and punishment when healing my team, let's make it HARDER FOR ME.

Screw you guys...

Edit: I chose a monk secondary on my necro so I could solo with her and heal my minions. And I do just that. You want to know what balances this though? I have to spend points in healing. I have to grab skills that heal me when instead, I could be picking up curses or blood skills for other purposes.

Lazarous · Jun 01, 2005, 07:37 PM // 19:37

One thing i'd like to see is monk armor that has weaknesses to shadow (dark) damage and possibly chaos damage. Seems only fair considering the necros have armor that has weakness to holy.

Eclair · Jun 01, 2005, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

One thing i'd like to see is monk armor that has weaknesses to shadow (dark) damage and possibly chaos damage. Seems only fair considering the necros have armor that has weakness to holy.

But necros get an extra defense bonus with that armor. If they make a monk armor have weakness vs shadow/chaos damage, they'd have to make it have some other benefit, or else it'd be pretty unfair.

toastgodsupreme · Jun 01, 2005, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclair

But necros get an extra defense bonus with that armor. If they make a monk armor have weakness vs shadow/chaos damage, they'd have to make it have some other benefit, or else it'd be pretty unfair.

Maybe like:

75 AL
Less defense against shadow/chaos damage
-25 AL while attacking

That would encourage healers to wear it, but other monks (attackers) to stick to standard armors.

Goonter · Jun 01, 2005, 07:59 PM // 19:59

While modifing the monks armor would make for some intresting changes to how a monk playes the game. I was going along the idea of adding some sort of addtions to the other classes to make them more self sefichant.

But then again. Like I was saying earlier. A monk that heals is always in situation that helps, for either his team, or even himself. So make a monk more situational like the other classes (like your armor ideas) could add to the same effect of balancing them out against the other classes.

And also, the armor ideas can directlly relate to other classes too. Warrors can get sheilds +other gear that automatically chance blocking, it could stack, but at the price of something else. Rangers could get gear that chance evasion. etc etc.

Goonter · Jun 01, 2005, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Another insight Ive had. Mesmers are the softest target in the game.

They dont have the defences with armor or with skills. (once again, the defenive skills they have are situational) Added they dont get the respect that a monk gets and therefor arent aided as well in battle.

As such, it seems like a good solution to me would be to add to thier illussion skill set some skills that counfuse players.

For instance, have the mez disappear for a short time, or have phantom targets around the mez, or make the appear like a pet or minon (which often take less priority as a target)

With some spamable illusion skills the mez would be a wonderful addition as he would be a hassle to fight while still being able to do what he does best, support the team by hassling everyone else.

Lazarous · Jun 01, 2005, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme

Maybe like:

75 AL
Less defense against shadow/chaos damage
-25 AL while attacking

That would encourage healers to wear it, but other monks (attackers) to stick to standard armors.

Something along those lines seems reasonable. Give them armors that make them more powerful at keeping their allies alive, but make them more vulnerable personally.

toastgodsupreme · Jun 01, 2005, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

And also, the armor ideas can directlly relate to other classes too. Warrors can get sheilds +other gear that automatically chance blocking, it could stack, but at the price of something else. Rangers could get gear that chance evasion. etc etc.

I'm thinking that gear that increases chances to block, would give a weakness to elements (including holy, dark, chaos, etc)?

OR

Chances to block, BUT, health or energy degen?

Rangers, yes, they should be swift. This is what I think when I think about rangers. They're wily. I agree that they should get gear that increases evade chances. Maybe a reduced AL though (not talking drastic reduction). I mean, if you want armors that are lighter and easier to move in, you're going to sacrifice effectiveness of damage reduction on those armors, right?

Or maybe give them increased defense, such as evade or block, against projectiles (magic and arrows). But with a hit on attack speed by a %.

Necros... I think they're good. Don't they end up with 70 AL armor (I have a lvl 19 necro, but nowhere near the final gear)? Reduced holy for increased def. I like that.

What about boots for a warrior that give a % for knockdown resistance. But you lose AL on them of course.

I'd like to see more gear combinations for each class. Adds a whole new level of strategy. If one piece of gear gives high base defense (but no special attributes), and one gives a chance to block (maybe you get an attack speed penalty... since your char is busy blocking), or one has immunity to burn condition (but ice attacks have less resistance), or whatever!!!!

The options on this are unlimited and make strategy insanely more fun to work out.

"Geee, these guys are mez'ers, maybe I should switch from my physical armor gear and switch to '5% chance not to be interupted' gloves"

Or

"I know that all these guys are ranged fighters. Archers, wand users, single target magic. Maybe I should bring my projectile resistance gear."

Flame · Jun 01, 2005, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Every class is self-sufficient. All of the classes have some type of healing, and the monk sacrifices their damage for a stronger healing than other classes. Monks are not overpowered.

Players do not like having more than one Ranger because they are redundant. If one player sets up traps around the monk, poisons, bleeds, cripples, and sets an enemy on fire, what's the point in having another person to do the same?

ManadartheHealer · Jun 01, 2005, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Please, do not weaken monks...

Both in PvE AND PvP, we are the first to die. Everything starts to wail on us, and we get taken down. Please, leave my **** armour alone.

Goonter · Jun 01, 2005, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flame

Every class is self-sufficient. All of the classes have some type of healing, and the monk sacrifices their damage for a stronger healing than other classes. Monks are not overpowered.

Players do not like having more than one Ranger because they are redundant. If one player sets up traps around the monk, poisons, bleeds, cripples, and sets an enemy on fire, what's the point in having another person to do the same?

Do you think 3 monks is redunant or a welcoming sight? Do you find yourself on teams that wants at least 2 monks to go to an arean or a mission?

No class is as self sufficient as the monk. And im not saying that monks are overpowered because of this. Im saying monks are too important because of this. (but I guess thats just saying the same, huh?)

Again...a monk that heals is good in every situation. (generally) If the defencive advantages for the other classes where more relable then a weak healing monk would be understandable needed for support, and 3 weak healing monks would be thought of as sucide becuase the team would have to protect all of them.

This treatment is often givin to other classes. If it where given to them all, Id think the game has found some sort of balance.

Lazarous · Jun 01, 2005, 09:44 PM // 21:44

On the one hand i agree with you goonter, in that all the classes should be more self-sufficient. On the other, it seems pretty obvious that a.net wanted to focus 'healing' into one class since the other classes options are pretty crappy (save for the necro and thats personal healing as well as being a lot less mana effecient).

If you look at it one way, this does simplify anti-healing since your targets are pretty explicitely shown.

Goonter · Jun 01, 2005, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Well again lazarous, having a healing class and the other classes not as good at healing is good. To me, it makes rpg and gaming since.
I was suggesting on something along the lines of making the other classes have there own unique form of survial. Warriors block, mesmers cast illusions, rangers evade, elementist and necs get whatever they need to survive like monk bosses do in pve. The monk bosses Im talking about in pve dont really do any offencive anything. But it should be a viable option for a player to survive completely or damage completely or somewhere inbetween.

I play a ranger mostly, but I do have a healer monk character that I use due to a monks necessity. And I think you brought up a point that Ive noticed before. The team bar which shows all of your teammates heal is useful for the team and extremely useful for a monk. Imagine what it would be like if there wasnt one. A monk would have to have to watch the battlefield and cycle through players to find where he needed to use skills and when. Imagine the skill you would need to be able to support a team this way. Thats whats its like playing a disrupter class and build.

A helpful solution - add a enemy bar window that shows multible enemies health/energy (maybe)/ and actions. A person could cycle through and select the targets that he wants to keep an eye on.
And the actions taking place in the skill monitor should look more clearly as to whether it is an action taking place or an action taken.
Maybe clear and quick blinking icon for an action in progress, followed by a bright and still icon for action taken.

eA-Zaku · Jun 01, 2005, 11:06 PM // 23:06

All these people who complain about monks are obviously pro (whatever class they are rooting for in their post)

Let's try to play monk before we bash them, shall we? That's what I did. I tried Elementalist, Warrior, then finally Monk.

Lower monk armor? You've got to be kidding me. Even the ranger that you're saying is not getting enough love (original poster) has higher armor than the monk. On top of that, players and monsters a like have a tendency to auto-target monks.

Sure, rangers are cool, effective, and as a whole, a damn good class. But you have to remember the reason it's "Ah man, a ranger!" is because that party's survival comes first. What increases chances of survival? A ranger or a monk?

Lower the monk's healing abilities? Are you crazy? Monk is the only class that can even think of efficiently healing other teammates. In fact, healing may as well be considered the main attribute of monks (aside from Protection builds for PvP) If you lower the monk's healing ability, then he/she becomes an useless healer. Then not only would monks get no invites, but every single profession would be on this forum complaining that they die too frequently. As you've said, the strength of rangers is their diversity. Rangers are too diverse! Why don't we lower their bow damage, or take away their varieties of skills? Doesn't seem right in that context, now does it? Leave the monks alone. They are just as essential as any other class. It is simply that people would rather play without a ranger or mesmer if it means they get to play with a monk.

EDIT: Ugh, sorry. I missed the last few paragraphs of your post. Also, I tried not to sound like I was flaming, but you did spark something in my mind, and reading my post does make me sound like a jerk.

Unfortunately, I still feel the need to present a counter-argument to your suggestions. Monks are not too strong; you are simply just not analyzing all available data. Even if monks were overpowered, it is not a good idea to increase the strength of the other classes (even if it's just for monsters)

Face it, a party will never be prepared for everything, UNLESS they are going through the area a second, or third time after their first was a failure. Likewise, increasing the strength in such a way (such as warriors have increased block) makes it impossible to hit them. My level 19 monk landed 2 hits out of 10 attempts on a level 9 warrior boss. That's just crazy. And even more blocking? Wow.

I do see where you're coming from in that monks are getting all the attention, but I hope you know that monk is a taxing profession to play, and with any online RPG with a healer class, either the healer will be completely useless because of underpowered healing ability, or they will be too in-demand, even if their healing ability is not exactly outrageous. I see no problem in the monk's healing ability, because as I've progressed through the game, I see that sometimes two monks is necessary. When one warrior can tank the Underworld, but it takes two monks to heal a party of 8 (four people per monk) then it's hard to say that monks are overpowered.

Goonter · Jun 01, 2005, 11:50 PM // 23:50

True. True.

If Ive lost my mind then Ive lost my mind.

For all of the tweeking Im told has taken place balance is achived in this game.
Im just dont except that hype. I believe balance is in constant flux, perfection is impossable but if seeked constantly we just get closer to something perfect, even a form of perfection we didnt know could ever exist.

As in the case here, (devils advocate) Id say, if your lvl 19 monk had the skills to smite him, the lvl9 warrior would have went out quick. Youd have had to prepared to fight him.

So no, I dont think its crazy. No more than I think its sane for a group of 8 lvl20 players attacking a monk boss with little or no success.

It should be up to the player to decide, "Am I going to sacrifice survial to do damage?"
As it stands, even though any other class can survive well, there clock is ticking when if any group of characters just decide to hit the attack button and wait it out. You cant do that to a monk. Im suggesting the end of this. It would make the game much harder, but at the benift for the classes.

In the end, monks need to heal. But if a team has no monks or wants no monks, they should have there own means to expect to survive. Unless they find themselves in the situation that counters thier ultimate defence.

Also, monks could have used some instances where they are forced to play the situation and not just "always be helpful" Like attributions in skills that heal others only, and then and attribute that heals himself, and maybe a few skills that are a combonation of both. Hell, monks might come off the proity target list then. People would be like, "screw the monk his only healing himself, get that frickin necro, he's killing us!"
Its a little to late for that though. Just wishful thinking.

Additionally, I think this could help monks as well as other classes out. Like you said. It takes 2 monks for a party of 8. Now, it would only take 1 because you dont have to worry about everyone dieing so fast, if they built themselves up defensively. If everyone on the team decided to focus on offence, then 2 healer monks could be there to pick up the slack. (Id like to say the disadvantage to this is that 2 healer monks cant heal themselves but can heal each other. So you would have to protect 2 monks instead of one.)

Dagbiker · Jun 02, 2005, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

In the end, monks need to heal. But if a team has no monks or wants no monks, they should have there own means to expect to survive. Unless they find themselves in the situation that counters thier ultimate defence.

I think thats a better way to look at it, if im a lvl 20 warrior i should have the ability to do any mission alone, without help, if i cant acomplish this, then somthing is wrong. this i think is whare the problem is. is the fact that the monk, is the only profession that can remotly hold there own, and so i beleave the solution might be to add skills or less healing time to the other classes

DarrenJasper · Jun 02, 2005, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagbiker

I think thats a better way to look at it, if im a lvl 20 warrior i should have the ability to do any mission alone, without help, if i cant acomplish this, then somthing is wrong. this i think is whare the problem is. is the fact that the monk, is the only profession that can remotly hold there own, and so i beleave the solution might be to add skills or less healing time to the other classes

LOL.

Every tried soloing with a healing monk? No? I didn't think so.

Goonter · Jun 02, 2005, 01:23 AM // 01:23

I do think some of this could be contributed to some of the extreme challanges in pve. I can imagine people testing the game wanting more challanges and then also to balance the weight of the challenge making the healing class a nesscary element. As far as doing any mission alone, I think thats asking much. But doing any mission with the aid of other classes and no monk, that would most exceptable.